Episode Transcript
[00:00:01] Speaker A: Welcome to the Bottom Line. I'm your host, Ryan Herpin, and today we're talking about trauma in a way that is practical, honest, and deeply relevant to how people live, work, lead, and relate to others.
The word trauma, really, it gets used a lot. Sometimes it's misunderstood, sometimes it's minimized, and sometimes people hear the word and immediately think, well, that doesn't apply to me. But truth is, trauma is not only what you know about what happened, it is also about what the nervous system, the mind and the body had to do in order to survive what happened. And the bottom line is if something from the past is still shaping how a person reacts, trust, avoids, performs, or protects themselves, then it's not simply in the past.
It is still active in the present. My guest today is Dr. Ricky Greenwald, founder and executive Director of Trauma Institute and Child Trauma Institute. He is a fellow of the American Psychological association and author of numerous professional articles and books. And his work has been well translated into more than a dozen languages.
He is also the developer of progressive counting, the fairytale phase model of trauma informed treatment, and a pioneer in EMDR, FLASH and intensive trauma focused therapy. Dr. Greenwald has spent his career helping people and clinicians understand trauma in a way that is not vague or theoretical, but practical, structured, and focused on real outcomes. Dr. Greenwald, welcome to the Bottom Line. It is such a pleasure to have you with us today.
[00:01:52] Speaker B: Thank you. So glad to be here.
[00:01:54] Speaker A: Now, as we begin, I want our audience, everyone watching, to think about one question. Where in my life might I be calling something personality, discipline, toughness, or ambition when it may actually be an old survival pattern or mechanism to still doing its job?
So I want to start this really by getting clear on what trauma really is and what it is not. Because for many people, trauma does not always look dramatic from the outside. It may look like overachievement, it may look like control, it may look like avoidance, it may look like distrust, it may look like emotional shutdown. Or even, you know, when someone, you know, they'd say, you know, they look, they're fine, but never truly at ease, right? And for the bottom line, this is important because people who can change a pattern, they have to understand what the pattern is protecting. So, Dr. Greenwald, I like to get right to the bottom line, as this show suggests. So I'm going to dive into a pretty big question right off the hop.
You know, when people hear the word trauma, what do they most often misunderstand about it?
[00:03:11] Speaker B: Well, this is a good place to start. You know, I've Got a book about one day away from being ready about trauma for lay people. Most of my books have been for teaching mental health professionals how to do the work.
And everybody's telling me, don't have trauma in the title. Because. Because what happens when you have trauma in the title is many people say, oh, that doesn't apply to me. My stuff might affect me, it might have pain, but that's not trauma. That's not about me. So I want to start with my definition of trauma.
There are a lot of different ones. The classic definition is these major dramatic events like serious car crash, sexual assault, et cetera. Yeah, that's traumatic.
I'm going to give a broader definition in terms of what actually affects people.
So let's say something bad happens, it's this bad, it hurts this much.
But little by little, bite by bite, you kind of chew it up, digest it, work through it. The part that hurts gets smaller and smaller.
And what happens with those bites? You chew them up, you digest them. It becomes part of your nutrition, something you grow from.
And when we think about growing from adversity, that's one way of understanding it.
However, there are some experiences that feel like too much.
I don't even know where to start taking a bite out of this in any way.
I gotta compartmentalize. I gotta push this out of the way just to be able to get through the day and deal with what I have to deal with. So I push it out of the way. It's behind a wall. It's there. I'm here now. I'm good.
The problem is that stuff behind the wall never gets digested.
And so then what happens to it?
You've got something that hurts stuck behind the wall. It makes like a sore spot. So you're minding your own business, going through the day.
Some little thing comes along, should be easy enough to handle, but it happens to hit that sore spot, and it feels like this, right? And if you think about the way people that you work with, that I work with might be generally really competent, but in certain areas, overreact. Whether that overreaction is with anger or worry or discouragement or shame or whatever it is, that sore spot reaction can have. You know, as a therapist, everybody that comes in, that's what it's about. It's about that sore spot reaction, the places that they overreact, that they can't handle, things that they feel like they should be able to handle.
So where does that come from? It comes from the major traumatic events that everybody knows about.
It comes from Being picked on in school.
It comes from having a parent that dismissed your concerns, that didn't really take you seriously.
It comes from having an older sibling that excluded you. It comes from having a learning disability and one frustration experience after another. It comes from medical conditions, sometimes one frustration after another.
There's so many things that can happen. And when I say this, people say, but that's just life. Yeah, it is just life. Everybody has that stuff. Everybody has that stuff behind the wall that makes the sore spot reaction.
And so I almost don't want to use the word trauma because, I mean, there are reasons to have that formal definition that everybody agrees on.
But as a therapist working with people who come to me with problems, it's all about that sore spot reaction, the stuff behind the wall, whether it came from those headline major events or an accumulation of things that people might not describe as traumatic. Now, it's not the only reason people have problems, right? We have personalities, life situations, habits.
But there's a mountain of research that tells us definitively that adverse experiences cause or contribute to not only emotional and behavioral problems, but even medical problems. Even when you factor out risk behaviors, et cetera, it stresses the system. So when somebody is not satisfied with how they're feeling or how they're doing, the sore spot behind the wall is pretty much always an important piece of it, if not the whole thing, but at least an important piece of it.
[00:08:11] Speaker A: There's a few things.
Yeah, there's a few things I've got to highlight from that that I think are too valuable to just not revisit a little bit. And one of those, that's very, very important. As you addressed this vis, you gave us a visual of how to really think of trauma versus challenge difficulty. Because not every difficulty, not every challenge, not every uncomfortable situation can be traumatic and can cause a, you know, that soft spot or that big piece that's hidden behind the wall.
Because ultimately, adversity does breed growth. You know, growth doesn't come from comfort zones. You got to be uncomfortable. But there are those things that are so uncomfortable, so big, that you can't just break it up into those little bites as easy. It's like you mentioned, instinctually, even, we want to put some things aside, and they can become filters for how you respond and react. And when one of those soft spots are hit, it can completely change the reality in the moment. That is for sure. And I love that you broke it down that way, because it does matter, and everyone experiences things, things differently. But there is one thing that, you know, I'M glad that you separated the two, because something I've learned is if you do what's hard, life will become easier. But if you do what's easy, life will become harder. So it doesn't mean avoid challenge or hard things. It just means understanding how to digest it, how to break things up, how to understand what you went through, even from a third perspective. Now, I might be wrong there, but, you know, I've gone through my fair share of traumatic experiences and it left a soft spot and something I was able to do. For some things, not all is a big problem, a big scary thing, even hurt can either become an excuse to stay still, to let off the gas, or to take it easy or to avoid. Or it can become fuel or another reason why you've got to push harder to move forward and to address this big, scary thing head on. But, you know, being able to talk to somebody like you is a major blessing and a powerful thing, especially for this audience because we all deal with this stuff and we've got more segments. We're going to be diving into a few things, but, you know, briefly, while we have a few moments left in this segment in particular, I'm curious, what is one practical step an entrepreneur, leader or business owner somebody could take to identify one of those soft spots that might be still lingering?
[00:10:47] Speaker B: Oh, well, I think it's just having a sense that I could be doing better than I'm doing. And I keep trying and it's not working right. I sort of know what I need to be doing and, and I'm not able to do it. Whether it's.
I don't know that that's one way I, I find that, that when people are just not satisfied. Now, I don't want to, you know, something that might be a sore spot reaction might be driving certain types of behaviors or protection, protectiveness or whatever.
It doesn't mean people can't be functioning at a high level, Very, very, very truly function at a very high level, even with their pain, even with the things they're avoiding, even, maybe even they're overcompensating in some way and that drives their achievement. So it's not that people have to be weak or small or unsuccessful because they have pain, but what we find is that when people can manage the symptoms or even better yet, heal from the pain and not have that pain anymore, they have even more room to achieve their potential.
[00:12:06] Speaker A: Now, I gotta thank you for this first segment and breaking down trauma in a way that we can visually see and understand.
So to our Viewers, please, before we dive into this next segment, grab a pen and pad, grab some coffee, whatever it is you need, because there's a lot of value in what's coming up. So we'll be right back on the BOTTOM line.
Welcome back to THE Bottom Line. Stay connected to this show and every NOW Media TV favorite live or on demand, anytime you like. Download the free Now Media TV app on Roku or iOS and unlock non stop bilingual programming in English and Spanish on the move. Catch the podcast version at www.nowmedia.tv.
from business and news to lifestyle culture and far beyond, now, Media TV is streaming around the clock. Ready whenever you are.
Now, I am still here with the wonderful Dr. Ricky Greenwald. And again, he's the founder and executive director of Trauma Institute and Child Trauma Institute. And now I want to talk about resilience. Now, this word has a lot of brevity. There's a lot of thoughts that come to mind, a lot of ways that we want to approach this word. But the word is everywhere. Leaders want resilient teams.
Well, parents want resilient kids. Professionals want to be resilient under pressure. But sometimes what we call resilience is really just endurance.
People keep going, they keep producing, they keep leading, they keep meeting expectations. But inside, they may be overloaded.
This is a very different thing. Now, as a business consultant, leadership coach, and I've seen countless entrepreneurs in that type of position where they're performing well and they're being consistent, but they're slowly burning out and losing bits and pieces of that fire to keep moving. Now, this segment should explore the difference between real resilience and emotional suppression. So, Dr. Greenwald, thank you for joining us today. It's such a pleasure to have you here.
[00:14:15] Speaker B: Glad to be here. So I'm going to jump right in with a complexity.
Living well is the best revenge.
[00:14:24] Speaker A: Oh. Oh, that's good. That's good.
[00:14:27] Speaker B: So how does that apply to being hurt?
And I've had client after client after client who overcame adversity and achieved some level of success.
And that changed how they felt about themselves.
You said I was nothing. Look at me now. Right. And so even with enduring, even with pushing through, there's a lot of value to that. And that can change the facts on the ground. It can change how you feel about yourself. So I don't want to knock enduring and pushing through.
Right. It's not the end, but it's a really great step for people who can do it.
That being said, if people can then manage their symptoms or even better yet, Heal from their pain.
They're going to get to an either, not only an even higher level of functioning and achievement, but of health and contentment and satisfaction with their lives.
Right. And so I'll give you a little case example, by the way, whenever I give an example, I'm changing things so that nobody could even recognize themselves in the story because that's, that's how it is in my profession. But it's still going to illustrate something.
I.
Many years ago, I did some post disaster, post disaster trauma therapy.
And I remember working with a child, you know, following a hurricane, and he was having nightmares and angry outbursts. And anyway, we treated the trauma memories to where they didn't hurt anymore. They weren't a wound behind the wall, they weren't making a sore spot. He digested it. It didn't bother him anymore.
Well, I checked in with his mother the next week and she said, you know, we were staying in somebody's house. You know, the hurricane had wrecked their house, they weren't living at home anymore. We were staying in somebody's house and we couldn't stay there anymore, so we had to move somebody else's house in their backyard.
And I've known my kid all his life, and this would have freaked him out.
He would have struggled so much, but he just took it in stride like it was an adventure. So what happens when you don't have that sore spot reaction anymore, you know, when you've actually healed from those disturbing memories, is that you're open to experience in a way that you're using all your capacities instead of reacting from the sore spot reaction.
So enduring, pushing through, achieving, it's great. It changes the facts on the ground, it changes how you feel about yourself. It gives you more resources.
Then the next step is okay. With the challenges I do have, can I develop some skills to help me manage those things and stay on track towards my goals?
And then, you know, the next step is ultimately, can I.
Typically, it's working with a therapist because we have special methodology. Can I work with a therapist using one of these special methods and digest those memories that have been stuck behind the wall, heal from those so that next time I face a challenge, I'm not even experiencing that sore spot reaction. And I can use my full capacities and, you know, handle it, be my best self, handle it the best way, and really become not only more successful, but more satisfied and more healthy.
[00:18:14] Speaker A: Now, there's a lot of depth to what you just said, and I appreciate you breaking it down in such a simple way for Us Now. Something you said kind of early on in that was. And it reminds me of an experience of my own. And I realized I had a sore spot for it for a while. But it turned into almost a superpower when I recognized what it was. And early on, when I was in eighth grade in school, our class did a time capsule. Now, I come from a really rough background. I was not. I was not always the best kid. But my class, we did a time capsule and we made predictions about each other. And my class overwhelmingly voted that I was most likely to end up in prison working at McDonald's for the rest of my life. Now, I didn't know they put that in the time capsule until we graduated senior year, just graduated, we dug up the time capsule and we started reading these things.
And it really, really bothered me. It gave me a deep, just resentment to the people of my class. And almost out of spite, I wanted to prove them wrong.
And I took that and ran with it. And as much as it hurt me for a while there to think about, man, am I going to be a failure? Am I really not going to go anywhere? I took those skills and blossomed into a life I never even could have imagined.
But when I realized that pain, I camouflaged it with spite. But it turned into what was almost a superpower that is now a story to help others.
And I think that's part of that process of growth and understanding and using those previous events and pains to potentially help somebody else through the same thing. But I am curious.
Why do so many people confuse emotional suppression with strength? And I'm saying this as somebody who
[00:20:06] Speaker B: used to really think that, okay, well, it is strength.
It's just not the highest level of strength.
[00:20:14] Speaker A: Right.
[00:20:15] Speaker B: And, you know, I had a life, too.
And I remember as a teenager and young adult, the pain was so great that I defined strength by being able to push aside that pain and still function.
And as I got older and stronger, I defined strength in a different way, as being able to actually face that pain and navigate it and ultimately digest it so that, you know, go through it in a certain way so that it didn't have the same impact on me. But functioning is a kind of strength. I mean, not everybody does, right?
So let's take your story.
Somebody else who wasn't as strong as you could have gotten so hurt and so discouraged from experiencing the way people saw you so negatively that you could have done bad things. Right? You could have just gotten discouraged. You could have gotten drunk. You could, right?
[00:21:22] Speaker A: Yep, exactly.
[00:21:23] Speaker B: So the fact that you Handled it the way you did is strength. Yeah, this hurts. But even so, I'm gonna do what I gotta do. Right? That is strength.
And so.
But then there's the next level of strength, which is, I'm not just gonna leave that pain behind the wall. I'm gonna take it out, face it, get through it.
And to me, that's. That's a higher level.
But the strength that you described is nothing to sneeze at. That's fantastic.
[00:21:56] Speaker A: Yeah, I like that you put it that way. Because, again, you're so great at giving visuals to this conversation for something that a lot of people would stray away from or think of as something so complex.
But for me, giving those visuals is really, really important because one of the biggest bridges between success and failure is perspective and understanding. If you don't have the right perspective, you don't know how to approach anything. And if you don't have the right understanding, you won't know what to do with any of it. And giving this type of perspective, it does make a difference. And it makes me question, okay, what are some things, like, even my clients where I see this is touchy, If I mention XYZ or I address this or I confront them a certain way, I get a very interesting response.
How could I start navigating that in a way where maybe it just encourages somebody to take that thing out and face it? Is there any advice you could give to somebody who is able to see that in others?
[00:23:03] Speaker B: Well, it's interesting because sometimes perspective is sufficient and sometimes it's not.
I know in my own career as a therapist, you know, we. You get a lot of supervision early on.
I remember I noticed with one client that I was becoming very sort of formal and professional and distant.
And I talked about it in supervision, like, what's with that? Why am I, like, distancing myself from this client and turning everything so formal? We figured out, oh, it's hitting a sore spot from when I was a child and this thing happened with my brother.
My brother's my best friend, but, you know, he's my older brother. So here and there, there was a little bullying. This client hit that sore spot.
[00:23:54] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:23:55] Speaker B: So I said, oh, that's great. So I went back to, you know, the next session. Now that I knew what was going on, I still did the same thing.
The understanding wasn't enough for me to do what I needed to do, and I actually had to go back into therapy for a little while and deal with that sore spot so that I could do my work properly. Right. So sometimes the understanding really is sufficient. So it's like, oh, now that I understand what's going on, I know how to manage this, and people can. And sometimes it's not going to be enough. It's still a problem.
And then you just got to go solve the problem, clean out the sore spot so that you can be the way you want to be.
[00:24:36] Speaker A: This is incredible insight, and it's funny because I can relate. My older brother is my best friend. He's the best man at my wedding. Still my best friend to this day. But there was a point in life where I could not stand him. And, oh, sometimes he can still rub me the wrong way, but. Oh, yeah. But to our audience, this conversation is only getting better. So don't go anywhere. We will be back here really, really soon with more of the bottom line.
We are back on the bottom line, and I want to dive right back into these powerful conversations we're having today. And if you're leading a business, building a team, serving clients, raising a family, or trying to create healthier relationships, this is the part of the conversation to really lean into. Trust is not a soft concept. It is one of the strongest drivers of how people think, decide, communicate, and perform.
So I'm continuing this wonderful conversation with Dr. Greenwald, and this has been so much fun for me. There's a lot of great understanding here and perspective that's being shared. And now I want to talk about trust. Not trust as a slogan. Not trust as a corporate value printed on a wall, but trust as a human condition.
People do not walk in relationships, workplaces, classrooms, therapy rooms, or leadership spaces as blank slates. They bring their histories with them. They bring traumas. They bring past. They bring disappointments, fears, betrayals, attached, you know, attachment patterns, survival strategies, and even protective instincts.
This is real. This is something a lot of us avoid. And in many environments, we judge the behavior without understanding what the behavior is trying to protect.
So this segment should connect with, well, trauma expertise and experience.
You know, that really everyday leaders, workplace cultures, and relationships are really experiencing. So, Dr. Greenwald, it is such a pleasure to have you on this show. This conversation's been incredible so far.
[00:26:53] Speaker B: So we're talking about trust.
People need to be okay. People need to feel safe.
[00:26:59] Speaker A: Yeah. Anyway, why is Trusso central to somebody
[00:27:03] Speaker B: with stuff behind the wall who have learned from experience that they're not safe, have a special need to feel safe? Right. So how do I manage my own life so that I can be safe?
I look at the different relationships I'm in, whether those are personal relationships, social situations, workplace relationships.
And there are people or situations that I avoid because they're not good for me. Right. And then there are ones that I might choose not to avoid because there's something important there for me.
For example, I was considering accepting a job one time with somebody I considered a leader in my field that I had the chance to learn a lot from.
Plus, the pay was about quadruple what I'd ever had before.
[00:28:04] Speaker A: That doesn't hurt.
[00:28:06] Speaker B: It doesn't hurt.
So I talked to people in the community, and I heard things like, oh, my God, never work for that guy.
I did an internship with him. It was an internship from hell.
I. I researched this and I said, okay, can I get what I want and keep myself safe?
And it did, pretty much. I, I actually, I took the job.
I took advantage of this person's knowledge and mentorship, and he really did a lot for me.
And I was very cautious around him and made sure that I never showed any vulnerability in the ways that I had researched. Wouldn't be good for me. Right? So it's not that we only have to be in perfectly safe, wonderful situations, but everybody is trying to protect themselves and be safe. It's just.
It's correct. We should. Right?
[00:29:07] Speaker A: So, yeah.
[00:29:09] Speaker B: When somebody has a trauma history, using this broad definition I had today, there's going to be a special interest in being safe, in being okay. And so we try to manage that in our own lives. We look at work relationships, personal relationships, other situations. Am I going to be okay here or not? And we make choices. Am I going to avoid it? Am I going to go? But I'm going to manage it in a certain way.
And then there's the flip side. Are people safe with us?
Right. Because we have personal relationships, we have colleagues, we may have employees, et cetera.
And what's it going to take for those people to feel okay enough with us that they can perform at their highest level? Whether that's going to be even in a personal relationship, if somebody doesn't feel safe with me, it's not going to go well. Right. We're not going to have the interactions that I would be hoping for.
[00:30:15] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:30:16] Speaker B: In work, if somebody doesn't feel safe and secure with me, that's not going to go well either. They're going to, for example.
So we have what I believe is the best postgraduate fellowship in the world for people who want to learn. Trauma therapy, very intensive, you know, 22 days and full days of training in the first year. Lots of supervision, lots of experience.
So we get people who, you know, who want to learn and, and after a year or two or three, a lot of them want to move on. And that's fine. That's fine.
They tend to give us four, five, six months of notice so that we can make sure we're not scheduling anybody for them after they're gone. We have plenty of time to find somebody to replace them and train that person.
Why does somebody give me half a year's notice?
Because they know I'm not going to turn on them and say, oh, you're just done, you know, march them out with their boxes.
They know. How do they know that? Not because I said yes, can trust me.
That doesn't work because they have learned from experience. People learn from experience.
So what experiences do people have with you and what are they going to learn from that?
[00:31:39] Speaker A: That's a really good point because it does change the dynamic completely. A great example is one of the ways that a lot of people struggle to retain good talent in complex industries. One of the things I always like to present to every leader, business owner, manager, what have you, is it's okay if people have goals, objectives and ambitions that are bigger than the business. That's okay, that's normal. If you want people to take your job as the position as a career instead of a job is partner with them. Let them understand that. Okay, your goals. First we got to understand their goals, we got to understand their ambitions, and then we got to find, okay, well if here's where you want to be, here's where what you're doing will help you get there. And then when you're ready to move on, give us a big notice and you'll train somebody to do your job as good, if not better than you. And we leave on good terms, we'll even help you get there. But that changes dynamics. So I'm curious though, as the dynamic from a leader or a leader to like a subordinate is a great way to put it. How does that trust dynamic change the ability of the leader to get results?
[00:32:48] Speaker B: Well, you know, we do a lot like what you just described.
And when I interview somebody for a job, I'm asking about their 5 year and 10 year plan.
I said, never mind this job, whether you get this job or not. Tell me about a month in your work life five years from now if things go the way you hope they do.
And some people tell me, yeah, I want to be in private practice. I don't run a private practice. I means they're probably not going to be with me. That's okay. Because if we can walk a path together in a way that's mutually beneficial for some period of time, we're good.
And you don't owe me anything. You know, you've been pulling your weight all along. You earned your way. We're good.
And what I tell people is, you know, some people move on, some people stay. Some people love what we're doing and that they thrive there. So some people build what we're doing and thrive there. Right. So there's some ways that people can develop while they're building our organization in a direction it hadn't quite gone before.
So I think it's really about, let's make agreements together about what we expect from each other, what we're offering for each other, and if those agreements, you know, let's stay transparent.
And I'll check in with people after six months, a year. How's it going for you? What's going well? What are the issues and what's your next step? And is that something we can do here or how can we support you?
And I won't say we have a perfect track record. Sometimes things go wrong for us, too. But I'm really pretty satisfied with how it goes. Not only for me as an employer, but. But I think, you know, I'll hear about it later. I think that our. Our.
The people that work in our organization are pretty satisfied with their experience as well.
[00:34:42] Speaker A: You know, I think it's very important how you. You really did just address something that was kind of a big question for me. And it's, you know, how can someone build trust without forcing vulnerability from people?
And the way you framed it is kind of that open dialogue of expectation.
What do you expect from us? What do we expect from you? And how can we keep that on the table and address it in a healthy manner where we genuinely want each other's success? Right. That's a way to prevent those soft spots, the sore spots, from being hit. Right. But something I'm curious about with a little bit of time we got here is how can someone begin rebuilding trust after repeated disappointment or betrayal or even fear? Is there a couple steps that can really begin that process?
[00:35:27] Speaker B: Yeah. And, you know, as a therapist, I. I address that all the time, even in my direct work, because clients will tell me, especially when I used to work a lot with teenagers, I don't talk to people like you.
And the first thing I say is, I'm glad you're on point and you know how to protect yourself. That gives me a lot of faith in you.
So people are supposed to protect themselves, right? Don't be an idiot. Protect yourself.
But then I say, but you know what if it turns out that I could be useful to you, how could you figure that out and we work it out together? Well, I could tell you something.
Not too big, but something. And if I don't hear about it from my teacher next week, I'll know you didn't talk about my business, and then maybe I can trust you with the next thing. And I think that's what people are supposed to do, do little experiments, test the environment.
What happens if I do this little thing? If I get burned? All right, now I know that's not safe. But if I get respected, if I'm cared for here, if that's okay, all right, now I know that. And maybe I can try the next step.
[00:36:36] Speaker A: And they slowly open up into really taking on that conversation and letting the walls down. And, and, you know, this conversation is so powerful in so many ways. And I really want our audience to understand that this is something that is accessible to everybody. It truly is. There's experts around the world that are that specialize in handling these kinds of things. Now, don't go anywhere. We've got another segment coming up, the last segment of the show, and we want to dive into a few powerful things.
So we'll be right back on the Bottom Line.
Welcome back to the Bottom Line. Stay connected with this show and every NOW Media TV favorite live or on demand, anytime you like, Download the free Now Media TV app on Roku or iOS and unlock non stop bilingual programming in English and Spanish on the move. You can catch the podcast version at www.nowmedia.tv. from business and news to lifestyle culture and far beyond, now, Media TV is streaming around the clock. Ready whenever you are.
Now we are back with the final segment of the bottom line with Dr. Ricky Greenwald. And these conversations have been profoundly powerful. And what we're diving into today in this segment in particular, is really, really important. So I recommend you tune into this, you strap in and really allow this conversation to sink deep. Now, Dr. Greenwald, it is such a pleasure to have you here with us today. I want to kind of start this segment off by diving into what is the difference between coping and actually healing.
[00:38:22] Speaker B: All right, so I've been teaching mental health professionals how to do trauma therapy for over 30 years now.
And at the beginning of the session, I'll say, hey, if you have any trauma training already, raise your hand. And in a room of 30 people 30 years ago, one hand would go up. Maybe now in a room of 30 people, maybe one hand doesn't go up.
So we've come a long way because everybody in the field understands that the stuff behind the wall is a big driver of people's struggles, right?
But many people who represent themselves as trauma experts and really are trauma experts are focused primarily on coping skills. Now it's better to manage your symptoms than not manage your symptoms. This stuff is good. So, for example, people might use medications, they might do meditation or mindfulness, self management skills, cognitive behavioral stuff, and that's good, and we use that too.
However, that's not the same as healing from the wounds so that you don't have the sore spot reaction anymore.
I'll tell you about a study, a randomized comparison. This is with adult survivors of childhood abuse.
And they were randomly assigned to either coping skills training or it was actually emdr, which is one of the trauma healing methods.
At the end of this, the treatment, everybody got better and about the same. By about three months later, the coping skills people had a little backsliding, whereas the EMDR people had a little further progress.
Then there were the exit interviews.
When the researchers asked people about their experience, the people in the coping skills group said, hey, this was a great treatment. It really helped me to cope with my symptoms. And then the people in the trauma healing group said, hey, this is a great treatment. It helped me heal from my wounds. I don't have to cope with my symptoms anymore.
So, yeah, the coping skills are great, but healing is even greater. Also. Coping skills, you got to keep doing them. You got to keep doing it. Some people are just in therapy endlessly and working those skills endlessly. Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't.
Whereas if you can just clean out the sore spot and you don't have that anymore, it's permanent. It's a permanent change in your brain.
The memory has moved from that place behind the wall to another place in your brain where it's part of long term memory, something you've grown from.
So I'm a big fan of the healing methods. Those are kind of new. It's only in the past 30, 35 years.
You know, EMDR is just from what, 1987?
So, so it's fairly new that we can offer systematic, reliable, efficient trauma healing experiences for people.
And when people do that, they don't have to cope with their symptoms anymore. So that's, that's, that's my focus.
[00:41:48] Speaker A: You know, this is something that kind of just came to mind in this conversation. If we were to really think about, you know, coping versus healing. Healing sounds like freedom from the trauma. Coping is trying to walk with it without it dragging you behind or slowing you down. Would that be a fair way to put it?
[00:42:08] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:42:10] Speaker A: Okay. So, you know, well, with that in mind, what.
Dive into a little bit of these different type of treatments and therapies and what you've seen really make a difference.
[00:42:21] Speaker B: All right, so I've, I've been in this world for quite a while. I, I had to write a dissertation at the time that EMDR was just coming up. So methods like emdr, there's others progressive counting, flash, there's a few others that have a lot of research support.
These aren't just weird things that fringe people are doing. By now, EMDR is at the top of the pile in these international literature reviews as being at least as effective as the other leading brands, more efficient, and at least as well tolerated because, you know, if it's too hard, people can't do it. So these healing methods are available.
One issue though is if you're doing this traditional hour per week therapy, even therapists who are trained in these methods don't always get to use them because the client comes in with their crisis of the week and you got to deal with it or you get started on trauma work and the session's over and you got to put everything away.
So I've been part of a movement, a leader actually in the movement to, to develop intensive trauma focused therapy where instead of chopping this stuff up into hour per week things and going on and on, you work with the client for full consecutive days. We often do like four or five days at a pop and people get more or less a year's worth of work done in a week.
And it's more efficient, you know, in hour per week therapy, hello and goodbye takes a quarter to a third of every session. And that's not wrong. You got to check in, see what's going on, deal with whatever's hot. And then on the other end, you got to put things away and help clients calm down again so that when they leave the session, they're okay and they can do their life. It's not wrong, but it takes a lot of time.
Also, in hour per week therapy, you're going to spend a lot of time on the coping skills so that people don't further deteriorate so they can stay on track, managing their symptoms while they're waiting for their trauma healing to get done.
With an intensive, you just charge through the trauma healing work and Are you going to need any coping skills? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. But often when people aren't traumatized anymore, they already know how to cope, they know what to do. So intensive. It's, it's kind of like binge watching a season of a show.
No ads, no recaps. It's all progress.
And, you know, my, my team and a few others have been researching this as well and publishing our research. And it's really clear this stuff works. Your people are making major life changes.
That's incredible.
[00:45:33] Speaker A: Absolutely. I kind of think of it as like, if you're trying to drain a pool bucket by bucket while it's lightly raining, it's best to just start and keep going until it is drained. Right. Instead of, oh, let's do a couple buckets here and there, you're not gaining as much progress. And then you've got to, you know, toss back out and stuff that just came in. But, you know, with this conversation, you know, to our viewers who would like to learn more about you, Trauma institute and child Trauma Institute or the resources and trainings available through your work, where should they go? How can they find you?
[00:46:04] Speaker B: Well, website's a great place to start. Ticti.org it's all there.
[00:46:12] Speaker A: That's incredible.
That is incredible.
So then I ask you, before we wrap up this, this show and move on with our day, I am really curious if you had a word, a note, maybe a few small things to share with business owners, leaders, investors and people that are watching this show that are experiencing trauma or have experienced trauma and it's affecting their life. What is some encouragement or something you could say to them to maybe help them take the first step in finding someone like yourself?
[00:46:50] Speaker B: Go to our website. I mean, that's easy enough, but I also want to just acknowledge and respect wherever somebody is on their path, if you're being strong by getting through the day, I respect that. That's a strength. If you're being strong by achieving something, I'll show them like you did. I respect that so much.
And when you're ready to be, you know, if you're being strong by getting some help managing your symptoms, that's a great step. And when you're ready to be strong by clearing, cleaning up the sore spot and becoming more of the kind of person you want to be, that's great too. And just make sure that you're getting, you know, one of these research supported trauma healing methods like emdr.
And ideally, if you can, if you can manage it, get it done all at once. I mean, why drag it out? So if you can do an intensive, that's even better.
[00:47:57] Speaker A: I really like that you were able to break down, you know, kind of the difference with the intensive versus, you know, traditional methodology. I really think there's a lot of value in and talking about that and really exploring the difference in results people actually get. And I really appreciate you breaking down coping versus healing, because I think I can see where that is a easy thing to get confused with or something to overlook. Whereas, you know, there's a difference between someone who's trying to keep making a paycheck and someone who's trying to truly solve a problem. But Dr. Greenwald, I want to thank you very much for joining us today on the Bottom Line and for helping us understand trauma with clarity, compassion, and practical depth. Today's conversation, I think, reminds us that healing is not about being weak.
It's about being honest enough to recognize what is still shaping us. And we're really courageous enough to really address it. You know, we talked about trauma, resilience, trust, safety, the deeper patterns, and really some of the ways that we can address all of this. And to everyone watching, I want to leave you with this. Success is not just what you build on the outside. It is also what you're willing to understand and strengthen on the inside. The bottom line is that healing is not a detour from success. Sometimes it is the foundation that makes real success possible.
So we'll see you next time on the Bottom Line.
